The utopian libertarian economist who would throw open the borders for the experience of an authentic chalupa once again summoned the Krakon by posting a comment from my site without proper attribution. I understand in the hothouse nerddom of internet protocol this is considered a major breach of etiquette, so I feel it is my duty… nay, my honor… to call out his beta ass. Here is the comment in response I left on his blog Karl Marx Was An Academic Too:
the quote cowen pulled and attempted, weakly and with great passive-aggressive betatude, to hide the source of, is from my post “the sixteen commandments of poon“:
XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses
In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.
obviously, there are some endeavors, like video gaming, that are utterly repulsive to women and won’t do a man a lick of good to master. but for the most part, there are enough niches that a good number of men can exploit that will increase his lay ratio by a non-trivial amount.
game, btw, is not about successfully playing a classic beta strategy. it is about systematizing and mimicking alpha male behavior to hit those attraction buttons in women that natural alphas do unthinkingly. and, yes, game also serves to help men handle other males (AMOGs in the parlance of the PUA community: alpha male other guy).
If Cowen wants to actually address my original post instead of tangentially hinting at one of its recommendations, I welcome him to try and refute the wisdom inherent in the poon commandments. I suspect his reflexive bias against my collected works has less to do with its truth content than it does with his decades-long resentment of all those guys who thumbed their noses at joining the ivory tower tribe shackling themselves to years of peer-reviewed servility chasing credentialist pats on the head BUT STILL GOT ALL THE GIRLS.
As for the quote in Cowen’s post from commenter Sebastian Flyte addressing my XIIth Commandment, I think it’s clear to anyone who’s lived a day in his life that there are some womana non grata male endeavors that won’t bring the pussy stampeding no matter how skillfully mastered. Video gaming, computer building, anime critiquing, and airplane modeling come to mind. But the general principle — that in a capitalist society there are enough market niches to afford most men the opportunity to excel at something that will draw at least a little more female attention than what they would get just sitting around doing nothing — holds true.
Why waste your time with a thieving POS? Yes, he was a douchebag for using without attribution, but why does it really matter? Flaming someone on the Internet is like being a gold medalist at the Special Olympics. You may be a winner, but you’re still retarded.
“womana non grata”
ROTFL
All true. Of course, the corollary is that women who have no chance at the top dogs of the Fortune 500 can move to an arena where there isn’t so much female competition, such as an Ultimate Frisbee team…or, heaven forbid, an anime club.
Men who are into some overwhelmingly male activities or interests don’t seem to have undue trouble with women despite there being relatively few women sharing their interests. Sports are the most obvious example, others include car-related activities, hunting and fishing, and manual crafts such as woodworking. As long as the activities or interests are generally considered normal guy stuff women don’t mind if men are involved in them.
Where trouble arises is with activities or interests that attract mostly men yet at the same time are not seen as fully masculine. These include science fiction, computer games such as WoW, anime, and (somewhat oddly) military history. Women generally steer clear of men who enjoy these things.
Posted by some non-entity named Keith at the marginalrevolution site:
“Tyler, just link to the harmless little Roissy douchebag already. What, now you want to out-douche the guy? If so, you’ve chosen the one dimension where that guy could actually beat you.”
A friend of yours, Roissy??
I’m actually glad Roissy called Tyler Cowen out. I was actually going to buy his book at one point, now I know I don’t have to bother. He comes off real passive-aggressive and douchey.
“Video gaming, computer building, anime critiquing” and other technology-related nerdy activities do impress girls, but of course only a small subset of them. I think over half of all real gaming girls I’ve met are Asian in some way (immigrants, Western-born or mixed). But I know from experience that there are white gamer girls who get hot for guild leaders and top gamers.
Asian girls who are not as impressed by nerdy activities often end up with Asian guys, because they tend to value medical, law or business degrees, and adhere to more traditional family structures (more obedient to their parents). To be with a white guy is a bit of a rebellious thing for an Asian girl to do. The thing they have in common is that all seem to really like men who are a bit feminized (e.g. Korean pop, J-pop, various anime male leads).
It seems to me that Asian gamer girls who are with Asian guys are often lower level and play video games just for fun. Asian gamer girls who end up with nerdy white guys tend to be more competitive gamers. The ones I’ve met usually have high level characters and tend to be very good players (and somehow they still remain thin and cute).
<3 gamers and nerds, the ones who bring pwn and lolcats… and built teh intarnets.
Where trouble arises is with activities or interests that attract mostly men yet at the same time are not seen as fully masculine.
The problem is not that they are not masculine (most girls realize that ONLY boys dominate at the hardest math competitions, and have done so forever), but that they are not primal.
So, the girl is not attracted to Michael Dell because he was the best at assembling PCs, but that his talent got him rich and famous. Einstein had his groupies as well (and he partook), but only AFTER he became famous.
The truth is, being great at Computer Science, say, like Donald Knuth, gets you nowhere. Nobody knows who you are, unless you are a complete geek.
“Video gaming, computer building, anime critiquing” and other technology-related nerdy activities do impress girls, but of course only a small subset of them.
Yes, that subset is called Korea.
If you’re interested in some more intemperate Tyler Cowen bashing:
http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/cowen.pdf
But I know from experience that there are white gamer girls who get hot for guild leaders and top gamers.
Those white girls make up a tiny fraction of the White Girl population. And, then, the percentage of them that are actually good looking is yet another subset.
Hope, I am not hatin’. I jsut want to make sure that any guy reading here knows exactly what he is getting into.
“I wanted to be a hero. I wanted to be the center of attention. I wanted the glory, I wanted the fame. I wanted the pretty girls to come up and say, “Hi, I see that you’re good at Centipede.”
-Walter Day (From “the King of Kong”)
Roissy and Tyler are talking at two separate levels. Roissy’s comments are straight-forward and all come over the table. Tyler’s words play at two levels.
If you are the MarginalRevolution reader not interested (and possibly repulsed) at Roissy’s point of view, you are not going to search out the blog and if you do, you’ll take Tyler’s words at their face: Roissy is evil.
In reality, Tyler is saying Roissy has excellent insights toward the mating game and what attracts women. Sebastian made an excellent link between their philosophies and Tyler took the opportunity to again underhandedly voice his appreciation
of Roissy’s wisdom.
Tyler has not offered any mating advice to contradict Roissy, and certainly could provide Roissy with his most intellectually interesting lunch date ever.
@ Usually Lurking
I don’t think Donald Knuth gives a crap about being famous. Just because most people don’t know him, it does not mean that he got nowhere. He created new knowledge. He will leave a legacy. Some people have higher aims than fame, an occasional good fuck, or even a tap in the back by fellow beta autistic academics.
The desire for fame is kind of pathetic. The desire for inconspicuity is much nobler, I would say. You don’t need fame if you have game.
Why don’t you guys settle this blog war in the proper gentlemanly fashion….take it to the ring. I’d pay to see that.
cowen and roissy are both very insightful in their own domains
Hope,
I know many, many Asian girls and very few are as you describe. Well, except for the thin and cute part……
They may prefer to marry Asian men (for the good reasons you list), but otherwise…they’re just like most other girls. Well, except more often thin and cute….
Yes, that subset is called Korea.
Best line all day so far.
Hope, thank God we have you as a safari guide. I’ve never played a video game in my life, but I find the creatures you describe fascinating. Please tell more! Why is there common ground between asians and feminized white guys in this world? Is it the unparalleled ability to manage your electronic persona that facilitates the initial phase of contact?
Kind of like furries: you may not like me as a person, but maybe as a chubby bunny???
@ DF
Good suggestion.
I’d pay to see Roissy cage-fighting that Tyler dude. I would bet my money on Roissy.
Oh yeah, and wouldn’t it be a great world if more Asian girls used the Squat Rack on a regular basis?
Yes, that subset is called Korea.
You are exaggerating just a tad.
And, then, the percentage of them that are actually good looking is yet another subset. I jsut want to make sure that any guy reading here knows exactly what he is getting into.
I think the people who are actually into online gaming would know better than you as to the looks of gaming girls. From pictures, voice chat and real life meetings, these girls tend to be moderately attractive. However, they don’t usually post personal ads or their pictures online, and because they are often already in a relationship.
They tend to be younger. Most gaming girls are under the age of 35. A ton of them are younger than 20. Pretty little teenage girls (13-19) are abundant in gaming (particularly free games) because they don’t have much else to do, and a lot of them don’t have the money to go to malls or movies, so some of them get on their computers and play these games. Teenagers make up 40% of all active gamers.
Females who are smart also tend to have more social awareness to make sure that they are clean and presentable. If you’re looking for the “club hottie” look, then sure these girls are not going to be the “10s” that some men look for, and they will be dressed more plainly and less fashionably. Lower maintenance.
Those white girls make up a tiny fraction of the White Girl population.
Male nerds also make up only a fraction of the overall white population. To be sure, there are more male gamers than female gamers, but the ratio is not as skewed as you might think — 2/3rds of online gamers are female. Some average bar-hopping guy is not to get with a nerdy girl who never goes out to bars and spends her weekends online. It’s far more likely that she meets other nerds and marries one of them.
I have known at least 30 different couples that play online games together, and I’ve seen a lot of their photos. Anyone who expects that these couples are uglier than any other average couple off the street would be disappointed. In fact, due to the younger age of the gaming crowd, these couples tend to be more attractive, not less.
Females who are smart also tend to have more social awareness to make sure that they are clean and presentable.
That’s it, that’s my new standard!
Hmm, where’s Gannon when you want him to vouch for the attractiveness of teenage girls?
@22 Hope
Teens don’t facebook like collegegirls do, and Myspace is known as pedobait heaven. So no real point in trying to hook up there.
And Gannon posts about the wedding not the sexual dating angle of teen girls, if I understand him correctly.
“but the ratio is not as skewed as you might think — 2/3rds of online gamers are female.”
10 million Everquest subscribers, 13 million wow subscribers rounding down for duplicate users = 6 million m/f users = 4 million female MMORPGers…
“Those white girls make up a tiny fraction of the White Girl population.”
4 million female mmorp gamers.
Lets sample the premier Gamers Conference… “E3″ for female gamer desirability.
Last time I was at E3, in Las Vegas (2001)
{ wife was a graphics artist for EA } The only hot chics were the Booth Models aka Advert-hype-zing. All local talent drafted from the LA agencies. With the exception of one Game Producer (an 8.5) and a beta tester
(pun not intended , she was a 9).
It seems sitting on your ass, for 5 hours a night leveling some ‘toon until its 70th level, tends to make gamer girls go fat!!!!!!!
{Oh and I bumped into Sinbad, the entertainer… he is a big boy, 6 foot 5 and 240ish, while playing “Midway’s Spyhunter” and “Excaliber”}
It’s annoying when you have to clarify a point that’s already frickin clear. Why do people nitpick so much? MR commentators pounced and implied that we were saying ‘all status hierarchies are equal’, when it was pretty obvious we weren’t. With some people you just can’t leave anything to chance, you’ve gotta anticipate every goddamn response.
Don’t worry Hope, I’m still here. Nice to hear from you, you are one of my favourite female commenters.
“Pretty little teenage girls (13-19)”
That comment just sounds so sexy. Yes, Hope is partially right.
I don’t think that Gaming and Anime per se repulses women. The issue is that a lot of males who like Anime and Gaming too much are just weird and/or ugly. Animeconventions are definitively places to go if you want to pick up teen girls. DS displays in malls are also a good place to meet HS school girls and mayge a 14 year old middle school girl. Also, sweettalking works great on younger, still more insecure girls. Tell a 25 year old how beautiful she is and you will get a fuck you, tell a 15 year old her eyes rival the stars of the sky and you will at least get a thank you from a happiness filled face.
Ah, and another thing; most girl gamers are still very young. Gaming has penetrated females just rcently, maybe only during the last ten years.
These are the type of guys I have to deal with on a daily basis. None of these bitches would ever tell you these things to your face. The “men” on this campus disgust me. I tried playing fuck, marry, kill with a girl I met here and she decided she would rather kill every guy I pointed out.
I regularly read economics blogs and pick up blogs. Using different names for each of course.
most girl gamers are still very young.
Yep. I feel very old myself when I talk to 14 year old gamers, since they are 10 years younger than me. I think a lot of people in the blogosphere don’t hang around teenagers, and don’t know just how many pretty young ladies are into gaming and anime. Cartoon Network and Adult Swim made many anime series very popular and mainstream among teens of this generation.
Internet fight! Careful boys, those purses can leave real bruises.
I don’t think Donald Knuth gives a crap about being famous.
That, obviously, was not my point. The point is that he is a huge deal in a nearly entirely masculine field. And girls could not care less.
There is nothing particular feminine about CompSci, but its lack of femininity does not give it the same status as being a good athlete, or musician (which has quite a bit of femininity attached to it).
You are exaggerating just a tad.
Just a little.
I think the people who are actually into online gaming would know better than you as to the looks of gaming girls.
Hope, do I seem like the type of guy who is completely unfamiliar with online gamers? Or, more specifically, the girls who would likely fall to their knees at the sight of some Gaming God?
I ain’t knockin’ it. Games are fun. But the math is easy.
# of males who love to play video games: HUGE
# of (attractive) females that would be impressed by that: TINY.
If some guy wants to spend 24/7 perfecting Half-Life or Madden or WarCraft or whatever; great. If he has some delusion as to what girl this will likely land him; bad.
Granted, there is something out there that can help him: Game.
Pretty little teenage girls (13-19) are abundant in gaming…
Gannon, you there?
Those white girls make up a tiny fraction of the White Girl population.
Male nerds also make up only a fraction of the overall white population.
Lets guess right now as to what the ratio is of girls who love gaming guys, and the actual number of gaming guys.
Again, Gaming Guys and Fanboys: HUGE.
Girls who think they are hot: small.
I have known at least 30 different couples that play online games together, and I’ve seen a lot of their photos.
Ah, again, these are the guys who ACTUALLY got girls. Hope, I am not saying that playing video games prevents you from hooking up, but, that your status as the greatest Zelda’er of all time is very unlikely to get you any girls. Not that you could not get one otherwise.
Granted, I could say the very same thing about Fly-Fishing…a very masculine and traditional thing to do. I guarentee you that the top 10 greatest fly fishermen in America don’t have groupies.
The whole point of all of this is, guys can create status for one another. But being great at something, in no way, guarantees you more pussy.
Granted, I could say the very same thing about Fly-Fishing…a very masculine and traditional thing to do. I guarentee you that the top 10 greatest fly fishermen in America don’t have groupies.
They may not have groupies, in the way that NFL players or rock stars do, but I would imagine that most or all of them have wives or girlfriends.
I wondered how long it was going to be until someone finally mentioned that the turn-off to women was not the games but the gamers.
Thanks you, Gannon.
Thank you Brutus; that’s it: and by the way, gamers are still relatively normal. The biggest freaks are usually on Anime conventions. And most Anime girls are also rather ugly, but there are a few nice, unsupervised 6, 7 and 8 (rating) 14 year old girls. And at the mall, you CAN see some really nice 15 year olds trying out games on the Nintendo DSs. The topic is fascinating, ut I have to go to meet a real teen now. But remember, it’s the guys, not the games.
But being great at something, in no way, guarantees you more pussy.
Hmm, I didn’t mean to imply that being a top gamer “guarantees” a guy hot girls. It might get more gamer girls (no, not “normal” girls) to notice him, but after that many more factors come into play. I must point out though that gaming is a more normal and accepted activity among teenagers and college students, and it is a lot more social nowadays.
I can’t disagree with your assertion that hot girls are vastly outnumbered by the men who want them, but this is the case in nearly every social circle, so gaming is not unique in this. But my conjecture is that a guy who is charismatic among his peers in a gaming circle is often liked elsewhere as well. The crazy fanboi who is socially maladjusted won’t really get farther among gamer guys than gamer girls.
Peter — the activities you describe are for men of average intelligence and therefore higher levels of testosterone. Stuff like computer programming, chess, math, anything related to high IQ repels women without question.
Gaming is associated with slacker-dom, fairly or unfairly, and that attribute also repels women.
But women DETEST beyond measure, High IQ. They really do. Because it equals, in their experience, lower testosterone, and women want, essentially, purely short-term relationships based on short-term attributes. Among them, high levels of testosterone (strongly associated with average IQ). Testosterone tends to decrease the higher IQ gets above average.
Look at your rock musician. The hierarchy there is: A. Lead Singer, B. Lead Guitarist, C. Rhythm guitarist, D. Bassist, E. Drummer. I.E. A will have far more groupies than B, who will have far more than C and so on. Even if the drummer, E, is more skilled and generally agreed to be more skilled by both the musical press and the public, and the lead singer A is sort of effeminate. Hierachy trumps skill for women.
Unless your skill is: 1. Considered “high-testosterone” such as motorcycle racing, base jumping, anything physically dangerous/risky requiring strength and physical courage as well as skill, or 2. indicating “high status” such as lead singer in a band … it’s pretty much worthless.
You could speak four or five different languages, or be a local darts champion, or be an art expert, or a skilled amateur chess player, and still lose out to a guy who’s only achievement is playing local club level rugby. It’s almost guaranteed.
#10: Those white girls make up a tiny fraction of the White Girl population. And, then, the percentage of them that are actually good looking is yet another subset.
I met one of these women, once. She was also totally, completely bat-shit crazy.
@36 whiskey: Is there any studies or anything you can point me to that shows a correlation between high IQ and testosterone? Honestly, I’ve long suspected that I have low testosterone, but I’m unsure how to go about getting a doctor to seriously address it.
Also, I’d just like to point out: Tommy Lee is a drummer and we all know he scored some high quality tail.
I suppose that explains why the piano player never gets the girl, too. Damn.
I’ve tried playing for several girls and they’re all like mmm hmm nice, now pay attention to me. I guess no female wants to compete with an 800-lb behemoth that absorbs at least an hour a day of my time. Perhaps it is the same thing with these other intellectual pursuits?
Oh well at least I’ll entertain them in the nursing home. Some day I’ll come into my own!
Animus: Half Sigma or Gene Expression had some data and links, here are some more:
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/06/060509.attraction.shtml
http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/MagArticle.cfm?SID=BAD29CF340772DDE291AE7A18689A3EF&DSN=nsrc_dsn&Mode=EDIT&Article=801&ReturnURL=1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2677697.stm
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/intercourse-and-intelligence.php
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10706169?dopt=Abstract
MOST especially THIS:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0D-4MJJGPP-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a1e024f1b95cd428ab7aa2e35569f606
“Our findings are the first that present the relationship between testosterone and the broad range of general IQ in childhood. The boys of average intelligence had significantly higher testosterone levels than both mentally challenged and intellectually gifted boys, with the latter two groups showing no significant difference between each other. The functional implications of the brain-cognition interactions remain to be fully explored with regard to the internal milieu influencing neural substrate.”
I suspect Tommy Lee’s success was more due to macho posturing (he’s the “macho leader”of the Crue) than skill or his position. He probably would not have been as successful had the Crue possessed a dominant lead singer the likes of say, David Lee Roth. Vince Neil not exactly being the most dominant, macho guy in that band.
Somewhat OT, but this is fodder for a Roissy post (see I’m always helpful):
Will Smith believes in “open marriage” … here:
http://womansday.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=590435
What is fascinating is how many women posters agree with him.
Lurching back On topic, it’s likely that status ala Smith trumps any skill by any male. I’m sure most women would likely sleep with Smith even knowing he’s married.
“But the general principle — that in a capitalist society there are enough market niches to afford most men the opportunity to excel at something that will draw at least a little more female attention than what they would get just sitting around doing nothing — holds true.”
Do people really talk and/or think like this? Sounds kind of pompous ass hole-ish.
Whiskey
But women DETEST beyond measure, High IQ. They really do.
Is that crack in your pipe? Women like smart men, they just don’t like the low testosterone that often comes with it. It’s usually easier to tell if a guy has high testosterone than if he’s smart, so high-T high-IQ guys don’t have to worry about being stereotyped as fem. I pick up a lot of girls because I’m one of the few high-T guys among the sea of high-IQ girly men at my university.
When I pick up women in areas where average IQ is the norm, I never turn them off when I tell them I’m a theoretical physicist, they’re always impressed.
Because it equals, in their experience, lower testosterone
High testosterone = increased chance that he will fight and beat the shit out of people to protect her and secure food and other resources
Low testosterone = high chance that he’ll play beta and let her get raped or lose out on competition for resources
What is fascinating is how many women posters agree with him.
An open marriage works out for men too since they get to *attempt* to bang other women of equal or greater attractiveness without the mess of cheating on one’s wife.
I’m sure most women would likely sleep with Smith even knowing he’s married.
Dude, I banged a girl in my deceased aunt’s car in front of her boyfriend’s house. I suspect that many men would bang a married chick if she was attractive enough.
DF
Why don’t you guys settle this blog war in the proper gentlemanly fashion….take it to the ring. I’d pay to see that.
That would be some funny shit. except put the sumo suits on like in some old lenno. Or some oversized gloves hate for someone to get hurt.
Ok here is where I relay one of the worste fucking things that ever happened to me. My ex-wife cheated on me for a guy she was playing uo with. Of course she says she didn’t to this day lol but you can open icq files very easily on a computer. I mean technically she didn’t cheat she didn’t have sex with me for last 6 months of our marriage. But yea when my wife and I where playing uo chicks would hit on me since we where rich in game and they wanted to be involved in that i guess. Lot of people got married in game in uo as well. so yea Hope is right and if like Sovereign says is true.
10 million Everquest subscribers, 13 million wow subscribers rounding down for duplicate users = 6 million m/f users = 4 million female MMORPGers…
Dang. That is why I save my loot. I can game later forever and it is a cheap lifestyle while my loot grows into the mils. You really can become rich video gaming just you probably have to frontload it lol can’t start out 24 hours a day gaming. Well you can but then you have to take a break in the real world for a minute then go back.
Just remember marriage is a big commitment in the sex area as well. Woman will expect you to want to have sex with them just as much 5 years later as when you met. Even after they put on some serious pounds. If they suddenly start losing weight though and getting back into shape probably because they are getting ready to try to leave. She got back into shape and was hot again. Then got out of dodge.
I try to learn,
So today my current woman has stayed in her beautiful shape and I try to keep my commitment to fuck the shit out of her and still talk cuddly. Been working so far.
[...] Original post by The Full Review [...]
Four points:
1. I have now linked to you, in any case you have gained many readers from MR.
2. I don’t favor open borders and have written as such.
3. Off-topic, but isn’t it also worth asking how many women will make themselves available to you without doing any strategy at all? Does Mick Jagger have to try so hard? Who are the real alphas?
4. Some of your commentators understand me quite well.
i think one major assumption being made here in many comments is that:
(quantity of sex) x (attractiveness of partners)=happiness lev.
-this may be the case for some, but i imagine the average male enjoys diminishing pleasure with each additional tryst in a set time period. also, to generalize what ron carvahlo says:
humans may indeed value high social status and a high quality sex-life, but they just as well may subordinate these for other aspirations that are more valuable to them – such as creating new knowledge, or maintaining a specific ethical system, and so on. i am sure tyler cowen has the same biological urges as the rest of us, but he clearly has very different priorities than roissy. I doubt he is fearful of roissy, but would rather maintain distance from someone who is crude, incorrigible and clearly willing to attempt character assassination on a respectable person without an ounce of shame, perhaps to boost traffic? this challenge to cowen may boost roissy’s traffic short term but will have no long term effects on his sites popularity. the readers of marginalrevolution(cowens blog) are frequent visitors of his site not just for his intellectual knowledge and clever insights, but also for his writing style, and the affable personality he reflects in that style. for this reason, they are unlikely to be long-term roissy converts. i think the challenge roissy extends to cowen may reveal a major weakness of the alpha-philosophy, which relies on the whims of others for satiation rather than harnessing the ability for self-satisfying pursuits. in other words, when an alpha is slighted, he must conquer the offender to regain his source of status which his contentedness is contingent upon. when a man who knows self-satisfaction is affronted, he simply brushes off his shoulder and continues to enjoy his passions—the best revenge of all is a life well lived
about the testosterone levels and iq discussion its important to note the correlation does not imply causality
Patrick, women really DO detest any markers for IQ, all things being equal.
If you’re yoked and built, and wear clothes that show it, you could confess your hobbies are comic book collecting and programming in C++. Every other guy has to make sure that information never comes up. Since it’s the kiss of death.
I agree with you on the low testosterone, that was in fact my point. But women WILL and DO use intelligence as a proxy for testosterone, particularly when it’s difficult to assess how much testosterone a man has. One of the reasons IMHO for all the stupid tribal tattoos is to show that the man does indeed have lots of testosterone. Other, non-payoff risk taking can indicate the same thing.
David Alexander — higher testosterone = greater chance he’ll beat the bejabbers out of HER. Dalrymple in “Life at the Bottom” points out how nearly all his patients … and his nurses! have abusive man after abusive man, knowing from a glance (tattoos proclaiming a love of violence, scars from fighting, etc) the man is inclined to violence and will abuse them. Yet they choose them anyway. Probably because they could, it was a luxury they could indulge in. You seldom see poor women in the Third World making such a voluntary choice.
Higher testosterone is often a bad fit in evolutionary terms otherwise nearly all males would have it. Pure physical strength and aggression are trumped all the time by tools and weapons. Check out History Channel’s “Human Weapon” where NFL Linebacker Bill Duff (a genuine tough guy, he tied against a Savate Champ who kicked him in the head) had no clue or hope against either Silat or Escrima masters … little SE Asian guys who knew their weapons. Aggression against someone skilled in weaponry is likely to get someone dead. Particularly since the attributes needed to be good at weapons are dedication to practice and that can diminish with high levels of testosterone.
This is IMHO the typical mistake people make — mentally pencilling in bull elk and the like for complex, tool-using humans. Aggression fueled by testosterone unless one has built a complex patronage network like Ghenghis Khan tends to make you dead. Shaka Zulu and most other Zulu rulers being a good example. Even the most “beta” male can stick a spear in the biggest Alpha when his back is turned.
Open Marriages in any great numbers tends to end in disaster society-wise for obvious reasons. Women like it, men don’t if practiced in any great numbers. When men don’t like something enough, there’s generally hell to pay.
Hi, I found this site from MR and think it’s interesting. But I find it curious there’s not much mention of downsides or costs.
I don’t like cars and certainly wouldn’t buy one to add a point to my DMV but looking people in the eye, smiling, saying hi and taking an interest in other people seems like good advice.
Do you have any recomendations for the easiest ways to improve your game for timid dismal scientists? Call it a constrained maximization problem.
The shared characteristics of roissy, tyler, and their respective readers are intelligence, curiosity, narcism and interests in mating.
> 4. Some of your commentators understand me quite well.
I do. (Came here because of the first post, thanks for giving me a new poison). But then again I do have a MA in econ…
And besides, you live a big part of what roissy preaches, Russian wife and all that… (not sure that part really dawned on most people’s mind here)
Roissy, you have to realize that Cowen is posting in the light of day, and he’s a married man who works at a university. The feministas could declare jihad on him at the drop of a hat and he could be tied up in soul sucking university hearings for months. So I think his point number 1 above has some merit.
On Cowen’s point 3, I think that the most important message of “game” is not to try so hard. Not all guys can master the palm reading and other advanced bullshit, but many many guys can benefit from learning to withhold a little and give the girl a little of the suspense she needs. Roissy puts it much better. As far as who is alpha, it takes mass times velocity. I can think of at least one billionaire near the top of the list (not Buffet or Gates) who is massive but has near 0 velocity.
On Cowen’s point 4, while I admire the work of each of you and there seems to be some room here for reconciliation, I still vote for the Sumo bout over the intellectual lunch.
> Patrick, women really DO detest any markers for IQ, all things being equal.
All things equal (in this case, all mainly refers to social skills and looks), the higher IQ guy will have a better job resulting in higher status and hence better prospects in the mating game. On the flipside, they will have higher requirements on their counterparty; most smart people I know can’t stand inane drivel for longer than few minutes – unless they’re piss drunk (and for some that does not lower the requirements either, BTW).
If high IQ=science geek, all things obviously are NOT equal.
Can I get a little lovin’ here as the guy that introduced Tyler to Roissy? (Proof here.) I’d say it has been a very fruitful matchup.
Yes? Yes? Ok then, thanks.
Incidentally, I’d hazard a guess that Tyler gets Roissy (as in admires his style and marvels at some of his points) pretty well.
Patrick, women really DO detest any markers for IQ
Nope. However, everyone, not just women, detests the arrogant nerds who think they’re so smart.
Even if you do actually have a high IQ, it’s just something you were born with. You did nothing for it and deserve no praise. IQ doesn’t entitle you to pussy, popularity, riches, fame, whatever. In fact, if you have a tremendous asset like an extremely high IQ and you’re wasting it on bitching instead of pursuing betterment, you deserve contempt.
If you’re yoked and built, and wear clothes that show it, you could confess your hobbies are comic book collecting and programming in C++.
Comic book collecting has nothing to do with a high IQ. It seems to me like you’re the one who’s confusing merely having a nerdy personality with a high IQ.
Programming clearly does have some minimal IQ requirements, but having it as a *hobby* is certainly not primarily a sign of a high IQ. Programming is boring. Who would consider it a *hobby*? Clearly, that someone is not much fun.
You seldom see poor women in the Third World making such a voluntary choice.
My family is from the third world, and violent men who beat and cheat on women are rather commonplace amongst nearly all social classes. Of course, when the choice is between starvation and living wife-beating, cheating provider, the latter tends to win.
Open Marriages in any great numbers tends to end in disaster society-wise for obvious reasons.
Has there been a civilization with open marriage in any widespread form?
Of course, I’m pro-open marriage because it’s a theoretical way for me to marry the emotional woman of my dreams, but have sex with the hypersexualized women that I can only have sex with. Of course, this may not play out in theory, but I like having that option if I do choose to embark in a sexless marriage.
Also, why I’m against polygamist marriages, I am not against the collusion of alphas to game the women. If that’s what women respond to, there’s nothing that I can really do about it, and it’s no different than prohibiting my ability to have sex with fake looking, porn-starish women. Mind you, since I believe that the vast majority of women desexualized husks with no real sexual value or appeal, and I suspect that most beta men aren’t missing much. Prostitution, pornography, and proper masturbatory techniques can easily replicate and in many cases, beat a sexual experience in terms of enjoyment, and it does so with none of the opportunity costs that a relationship brings. I think it’s far easier to maintain a set of female friends for my emotional needs and porn for my sexual needs than to delve into the broken world of sexual relationships with a female. Regardless of whether the female follows pre-feminist or post-feminist values, it makes no sense for a beta male to enter into a marriage or long-term relationship due to the vagaries of the female sex drive, financial burden of supporting a woman and children, and latent desires of a woman for an alpha male that comes out in nagging.
I suspect instead of rioting, most beta males will eventually wake up and realize that mating is simply a waste, and enjoying one’s life in an alternative fashion is the superior option. If women can live without sex, I suspect men are just as capable as well.
I never knew Roissy was so sensitive or cared so much……let’s just say I’m waiting for the day that Roissy puts his name, work address, pics, and phone # on his blog. I’ll be curious to see how he much he “unleashes” on polite society. It’s easy to be brave on ones anonymous blog.
jaakkeli
Programming clearly does have some minimal IQ requirements, but having it as a *hobby* is certainly not primarily a sign of a high IQ. Programming is boring. Who would consider it a *hobby*? Clearly, that someone is not much fun.
========================================
Clearly, that someone is smarter than you.
…and most smart people are also arrogant for a reason.
What exactly what do you mean by, the high IQ should be pursuing betterment? You mean something useful like memorizing facts about literature and art history?
If a guy codes for fun, does math for fun, does physics for fun…he’s a lot smarter than the overwhelming majority of people, including the fakers blubbering shit about the stifling of the narrative by an oppressive author.
We have to allow the eccentric to do their thing. And it’d be nice if they got to procreate too.
-Karl
I suspect instead of rioting, most beta males will eventually wake up and realize that mating is simply a waste, and enjoying one’s life in an alternative fashion is the superior option. If women can live without sex, I suspect men are just as capable as well.
go get a prostitute. seriously. it’s pathetic that you keep discussing your plight without taking more constructive measures to deal with the situation. a lot of betas/omegas have done this on the road to alpha redemption. try it. it’s relatively cheap in the big apple. you will be helping a chick feed her family through consensual sex.
Clearly, that someone is smarter than you.
Some *computer programmer*? Right.
What exactly what do you mean by, the high IQ should be pursuing betterment?
Whatever he wants. Girls, money, fame, whatever. If it’s the greatest cred among programmer nerds, then pursue that… but don’t infest blogs whining about how your *chosen hobby* isn’t getting you what you want.
There is no law requiring high IQ people to only engage in boring solitary hobbies that repulse women. It’s your own choice and has zero to do with your IQ.
You mean something useful like memorizing facts about literature and art history?
Yeah, that’s a lot dumber than memorizing fascinating detail like whether the computer wants curly brackets or round brackets for some particular task.
52 “Do you have any recomendations for the easiest ways to improve your game for timid dismal scientists?”
http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Game-Neil-Strauss/dp/0061540455/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216369726&sr=1-1
go get a prostitute
No. Quite frankly, if I wanted to have sex with an less than attractive and unwilling partner who wanted to fake orgasms, I would find a normal female. Besides, a shitty orgasm isn’t worth a night in one of the worst jails in the country, and it certainly isn’t worth catching herpes or AIDS.
I’ve found that Asian chicks like big dicks more than gaming abilities. But, that’s just me.
@65 David Alexander
“Besides, a shitty orgasm isn’t worth a night in one of the worst jails in the country, and it certainly isn’t worth catching herpes or AIDS.”
I suspect you own a Fleshlight, David.
oh, and I answered your question…
“To all of the fellow faux-economists here, what would *you* do to save the economy and US dollar?”
that you raised in post 117 on bad boy thread, with a response in post 121
Hey Susan, Mary,
Can you girls take it outside? The slapping and screeching is annoying. And not in that “good” way.
Give it up, econ boys!
They don’t call it the dismal science for nothing…
To add to Whiskey’s point, one thing you learn very quickly when you work door at a club, either by personal experience or observable data: no matter how big & tough you are, there’s ALWAYS someone bigger and tougher.
Interesting. Speaking of status, whose site receives more traffic, do you think?
I’m pretty sure carrying a copy the Game to the bar would be a great pick-up prop. Anyone try it?
“In fact, if you have a tremendous asset like an extremely high IQ and you’re wasting it on bitching instead of pursuing betterment, you deserve contempt.”
Is this some sort of lame attack on someone else’s manliness? Sheesh. :p
“To all of the fellow faux-economists here, what would *you* do to save the economy and US dollar?”
If the world’s largest economy NEEDS “saving,” there isn’t anything you can do to save it. But economies are surprisingly tenacious/ Even the Great Depression did little more than set us back for a decade.
monohechomierda is correct. Roissy is a beta. A true alpha wouldn’t give two shits about putting his real name out there.
And LOL@people on here ragging on studying in academia. What the fuck do you think some of you nitwits studying the game are doing?
The consequences of you guys studying the game are the payoff; but, imagine the amount of women who’d turn you down if they knew your past and current state of nertitude in studying women’s interactions and trying to overcome your inner beta by faking alpha. 90% of the PUA community wouldn’t be able to pick up if women knew your true, and past, states.
I don’t follow this train of logic. You know how many people lose out on job opportunities and/or prospective clients based on what type of info comes up from a simple google search of your name? Why throw up any unnecessary information about yourself in connection to your name on the internet if you don’t have to? The risks far outweigh the rewards in my opinion, especially based on whatever your career is.
I think NO man would be able to pick up if women knew every dark secret of their pasts, especially concerning their thoughts about sex and mating. Shoot, just the true extent of an average man’s porn-watching activities would turn most women off. Likewise, I think a lot of women would have trouble with men if men knew every skeleton in their closet. So what exactly is your point? EVERYBODY has secrets they keep from prospective mates for fear of scaring them off.
> Yeah, that’s a lot dumber than memorizing fascinating detail like whether the computer wants curly brackets or round brackets for some particular task.
IF you need to memorize that (hint: most languages have a very clear and simple rule for it), clearly you’re not suited to be a programmer.
But I’ll grant you that whatever makes great programmers (analytical and systematical thinking) probably hurts rather than helps you in the mating market.
Not so much because it will immediately turn women away but much more because you simply overanalyze stuff and lose self confidence over it.
“I don’t follow this train of logic … The risks far outweigh the rewards in my opinion, especially based on whatever your career is.”
Of course you follow it, you made my point for me. Roissy is a beta acting the role of alpha and he’s afraid someone in his real life will call him out. He is a deceptive individual that most bosses wouldn’t hire if they knew what his true character was like. He has to maintain anonymity, as there is probably something incongruent between his real self and his online self (whatever that is we don’t know, but people who are close to roissy in his private and professional life probably do). Roissy is an individual who hides away from risk and confrontation, unless he has the blanket of anonymity. Individuals who aren’t risk takers, and hide out from the ‘real world,’ are beta males. Therefore Roissy is a beta.
“So what exactly is your point? EVERYBODY has secrets they keep from prospective mates for fear of scaring them off.”
Perhaps you lack reading comprehension and the ability to discern context. My conclusion you quoted had a preceding premise that named the exact states I was talking about in the context of ’studying’ the game. It was a response to the comparison between studying the game and study in general. Some here seem to think that study, in and of itself, is a marker of ‘nerdiness,’ and hence being ‘beta’. Some members of the PUA community seem to think that their personal study, and its field applications, of the game are somehow above this because of the consequences associated with picking up. They are the same learning processes with different consequences. If potential partners realised the intensity and length of time these same members put into studying, and applying, the game they’d think they had the mating equivalent of asperger’s syndrome.
I think we will all feel better when haha posts his name, address and phone number, won’t we boys and girls?
Was it the fact that the blogger recieved those photos that set haha off? Shouldn’t haha be posting on that thread instead? You know, haha, Roissy the Beta just got those pictures of a very fine looking woman, haha what a beta!
Ha, ha the beta just got sent near perfect ass pictures!
Of course, haha the tyler cowen groupie can say whatever he wants here, because this blog doesn’t censor…. with absolute safety that Roissy can’t spam back on tyler cowen or groupie board, because haha CAN censor! This is not because haha is a hypocrite, because haha is a bold bringer of truth. It is odd that he is repeating the same tired tripe that I have heard for years. But not because he is text-book smearing, because haha is above that……. even though I don’t even know who he is.
But that could easily be resolved, couldn’t it haha?
Name.
Address.
Phone number.
23 SovereignAmericanMale
I need to address something that I overlooked in my previous post.
At that E3 I saw one of the best games for undoing the damage of Wow/EQ caused weight gain.
It had been out for several years in Japan, but it premiered at E3 2001. It went platinum in 2004.
Its called Dance Dance Revolution. Because of my wife’s connections, I was able to obtain an Engineer’s Evaluation Copy, a week after E3.
We danced about 1 to 2 hours every day.
Over 11 weeks DDR caused her to lost 16 lbs and 2 dress sizes.
I have some 17yo + Teen friends that have DDR parties. This is the ideal subset of female gamers, if you are going to hook up….
But you better come with some steps and not just game.
59 David Alexander
“I think it’s far easier to maintain a set of female friends for my emotional needs and porn for my sexual needs than to delve into the broken world of sexual relationships with a female. Regardless of whether the female follows pre-feminist or post-feminist values, it makes no sense for a beta male to enter into a marriage or long-term relationship due to the vagaries of the female sex drive, financial burden of supporting a woman and children, and latent desires of a woman for an alpha male that comes out in nagging.”
As repugnant as it may seem, there is no difference between you and a homosexual male. (reproductively speaking) Or for the matter, a career minded Feminist who doesn’t breed. { A Dizzy }
You are quite selfish. And until now I hadn’t even thought you as being such. I just finished reading post 59, and meditated on it for about 45 minutes.
You are a drain on the resources, because you refuse to breed, and the future belongs to the children. And your protestations to why you wont be a father, fall on my ears as being weak, ill prepared, and hollow.
There is nothing you can make that will out last progeny,
perhaps other then becoming a steward of crops, and/or livestock.
But cows don’t equal the value of a human life.
Sure you could in theory, build some Pyramids that last forever. But other then tourism, they are not even in use.
Countries with negative birthrates for couples, and males and females who don’t pair, always go extinct.
You need to get a gal preggers for the Red White and Blue. Or perhaps, go die erm… I mean Serve in Iraq.
59 David
“Prostitution, pornography, and proper masturbatory techniques can easily replicate and in many cases, beat a sexual experience in terms of enjoyment, and it does so with none of the opportunity costs that a relationship brings.”
David, I think you are very “realistic” in looking at what IS in society. Even though some here take umbrage (isn’t that a cool word?) to your worldview you can’t be faulted for accurately assessing the current experience of many who are in intimate partnerships of one kind or another.
In response to 79 SAM, I must disagree that “You are a drain on the resources, because you refuse to breed, and the future belongs to the children”.
That type of thinking must assume that resources are somehow limited (I just lost most of you on that one) or that your contributions to “society” are somehow inferior. I think you see “society” and don’t want to be a part of it.
The problem for you (as far as I see it) comes from your consistent efforts to constrict yourself–thereby limiting your present/future options. You could become part of a new society. But a new “society” comes from new individuals. If you’re resigned to your belief in your own limited choices/options, then there you are and so what? It doesn’t hurt anyone else.
Your deeper wants and desires are being squelched and as long as you cut yourself off from the possibility of achieving them you will not experience the higher states happiness that you came here to reach and will be forever a muffled man. Was that clever? LOL
>You are a drain on the resources, because you refuse to breed, and the future belongs to the children. And your protestations to why you wont be a father, fall on my ears as being weak, ill prepared, and hollow.
Like we cared what YOU think.
The planet is overpopulated as it is, so quite contrary to your comment people who don’t procreate actually lessen the drain on future resources.
And before you raise the issue about future consumption, the amount of money I’ll pay into the scam (in every other incarnation, the scheme would be illegal, yet this one we are forced to pay for) called social security (resp. the local equivalent) over my life will be about an order of magnitude larger than what I’ll ever get back from it.
@81 Nupnup
Like I care what You (we) think…
Overpopulation myth – Google Search
1. OVERPOPULATION ~ Myth & Reality
“Overpopulation is one of the greatest of modern myths. It has become the bogeyman used to scare us into accepting desperate measures to curb this threat to …”
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3046/overpop.htm
2. Is Human Population Really the Problem?
“The myth of overpopulation. We have plenty of resources but too much government. Look at what science really shows. By Jeff Lindsay.”
http://www.jefflindsay.com/Overpop.shtml
3. The Over Population Myth – Provided by Bob Sperlazzo
“If you familiarize yourself with the myths surrounding “overpopulation,” you’ll be in a better position to defend yourself and your family against these …”
http://www.juntosociety.com/guest/sperlazzo/bs_opm1010903.html
4. The Over Population Myth Part II – Provided by Bob Sperlazzo
“The following analysis examines the myth of global overpopulation and the real danger of under-population that threatens many parts of the world in the …”
http://www.juntosociety.com/guest/sperlazzo/bs_opm2010903.html
5. New UN Report Challenges Overpopulation Myth
“New UN Report Challenges Overpopulation Myth. New York — A new UN report studying the effects of population growth on the environment provides information …”
http://www.euthanasia.com/popmyth.html
6. Archive | May 8, 2000 | The myth of over-population
“”The Japanese island of Oshima is giving us an inkling of what the future may be like. Children are so rare that an old people’s home set up dummies of a …”
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0500overpopulation.htm
7. Population Research Institute Homepage
“… dedicated to objectively presenting the truth about population-related issues, and to reversing the trends brought about by the myth of overpopulation. …”
http://www.pop.org/
8. Amazon.com: Redemption: The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No …
“Amazon.com: Redemption: The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in America: Nathan J. Winograd: Books.”
http://www.amazon.com/Redemption-Myth-Overpopulation-Revolution-America/dp/0979074304
9. Amazon.com: The Overpopulation Myth (Series on Public Issues, No 4 …
“Amazon.com: The Overpopulation Myth (Series on Public Issues, No 4): Thomas Robert Saving: Books.”
http://www.amazon.com/Overpopulation-Myth-Public-Issues-No/dp/0865990131
10. May/June 1998 – Feature – “Too Many People?”
“If you familiarize yourself with the myths surrounding “overpopulation,” you’ll … Myth 4: The world’s forests are disappearing because of overpopulation. …”
http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.3/coverstory.html
11. Exposing the Overpopulation MYTH
“One of the tools the Pro-abortion community uses to further their agenda is the OVER POPULATION MYTH. I can’t count the number of times I’ve picked up a …”
http://www.whatyouknowmightnotbeso.com/overpop.html
@81 Nupnup
“The planet is overpopulated as it is, so quite contrary to your comment people who don’t procreate actually lessen the drain on future resources.”
Nice to see that you take the koolaid, and accept the lies you are told.
I could give you the exact facts, but you would’nt listen to the truth if I bothered. So take another Blue Pill.
“Like we cared what YOU think.”
You and your imaginary cast of friends, mean nothing to me.
I never asked you to care, so like whatever punk.
SAM lets hear the facts.
@83 Milton Freedman
“SAM lets hear the facts”
Roger,
Mr. Freedman’s ghost, please peruse the following:
Dr. Jacqueline Kasun, professor of economics at Humboldt State University in California, observes in her 1988 book The War Against Population that:
1.
No more than 1-3% of the Earth’s ice-free land area is occupied by humans.
2.
Less than 11% of the Earth’s ice-free land area is used for agriculture.
3.
Somewhere between 8 and 22 times the current world population could support itself at the present standard of living, using present technology.
4.
This leaves 50% of the Earth’s land surface open to wildlife and conservation areas.
The lower limit of 8 times the current population (about 44 billion) has been considered as being perfectly workable.
According to Dr. Kasun,
“better yields and/or the use of a larger share of the land area would support over 40 billion persons.”
Former Harvard Center for Population Studies Director Roger Revelle estimated that the agricultural resources of the world were capable of providing an adequate diet (2,500 kilocalories per day) for 40 billion people, and that it would require the use of less than 25% of the Earth’s ice-free land area.
Revelle estimated that the less-developed continents were capable of feeding 18 billion people, and that Africa alone was capable of feeding 10 billion people, or twice the current world population, and more than 12 times the 1990 population of Africa.
In addition to the fact that many new strains of food have been developed that can boost food production, there are other indications that food would not be a problem. In the September 1976 issue of Scientific American, Dr. David Hopper asserted that the worlds “food problem” does not arise from any physical limitation on potential output or any danger of unduly stressing the environment.
The limitations on abundance are to be found in social and political structures of nations and the economic relations between them. In fact the planet, during its least populous years, suffered from hunger and famine. It was only when state political controls receded in the late 19th century that hunger also began to recede.
With the rise of Communism, welfare states, fascism and international corporate capitalism (all forms of Darwinist Socialism), many of the destructive controls preventing adequate growth and distribution of resources returned. Since absolute cooperation and free-market planetary economic is counterproductive to global socialist and capitalist goals, it is quite apparent that the myth of overpopulation is a form of attack on this same free market, even though no more lawlessness and evil use of men and materials exists than under Socialism.
It is curious that many densely populated countries with relatively free economies are thriving, and are seldom mentioned in the “over-population” debate, while sparsely populated nations with oppressive governments are “plagued with problems relating to population.”
Taiwan, with a population density of five times that of China, produces 20 times as much Gross National Product than China. Similarly, Singapore, with a density of 11,910 per square mile, enjoys a per capita GNP of $8,782, while Ethiopia, with a density of 101 per square mile, has a per capita GNP of $121.
The real problem is that big government is the greatest obstacle to the social advancement of the human race.
83: “The planet is overpopulated as it is, so quite contrary to your comment people who don’t procreate actually lessen the drain on future resources.”
“Nice to see that you take the koolaid, and accept the lies you are told”
Putting aside the question of overpopulation, please explain how people who contribute more to the system than they will ever take from it can possibly be selfish drains on said system?
Roissy, this is off topic, but if you haven’t, you should check out the thread over at 2blowhards concerning F. Roger Devlin, and the three articles he wrote contained therein. They are a tour-de-force. It’s funny watching Clio having to squirm as she attempts to deny such a cogent analysis.
“please explain how people who contribute more to the system than they will ever take from it can possibly be selfish drains on said system?”
Because when they fail to return their genes into to the circulation, the fail to pass on anything truly lasting.
Before the dawn of the written human record, the oldest being Mayan, Egyptian, and Chinese. Humans genes predate these by millions of years. If anything, this is the most valuable resource we have. Stone structures (pryamids) cant repair themselves, replicate or any of this.
All we have made with our hands hear on earth, will cease to exist at some point. But if we can get off earth, humans will spread through out the Milky Way Galaxy, and spread across the universe. The future belongs to the children.
There is no work more noble or worthy then passing on your genes. This genetic imparitive sorts the wheat from the chaff. Anything else, I maintain is superfluous in the long view. But its not enough to merely spawn progeny, one has to raise them in a manor, such that they will rise to the challenge of survival (personal and genetic)
Those who don’t pass the baton on, are taking a free ride, on those who do. After all, it will be their offspring who are taxed, to pay for the checks when the Non-breeders hit retirement age, and start drawing SSI.
Ok SAM I knew most of what you posted and I’m telling you this because I don’t want you to group me into the dumb environmental apocalytes. Humanities greatest danger is a lack of funding for space programs which is the next milestone to continuing the human race.
I have only one small conflict with what you said and that is your lack of accounting for entropy and heat death. However, as someone who firmly believes that human science will figure out a way to reverse the laws of entropy it would be hypocritical for me to use this argument against you.
About the population. My point wasn’t that we don’t have the resources to support the population:
Some facts:
A 40 story 6 acre vertical farm can support 72,000 people.
Just one acre of indoor hydroponics can grow 30 acres of outdoor strawberries. This means that today’s farmland usage could be reduced to 1%. This excludes future innovations in GM output and other such things. This vertical farm is completely possible with today’s technology and the only thing stopping it is the fact that it would require government subsidies to build. Either that or stockholders willing to wait 10 years to become rich (and yes they would become rich).
My only problem with the population increases is that people become physically crowded. Your example of Taiwan paints a bleak picture of what science would enable from the standpoint of someone who wants some privacy.
Also we don’t need as much human capital as robots are quickly replacing most level jobs.
SAM your argument about people that don’t breed only holds up if you view welfare’s optimal state as a ponzy scheme.
@89 Milton Freedman
“Also we don’t need as much human capital as robots are quickly replacing most level jobs.”
The rise of a general purpose humanoid robot scares me. Not of the tech, but of the richest 5%, who have no ethical compulsions about mass liquidations of homo sapians.
The terminators are not robots.. but humans who control them.
Otherwise, we will be pack-up-ed on a globe with megacities like New York in “the Fifth Element” and science still hasn’t solved the materials search for building this kind of structures.
Carbon nanofibers and steel are sufficient materials. What prevents supersized skyscrapers is zoning laws.
@90 Milton Freedman
My: post 91
“Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
@92 Milton Freedman
“Carbon nanofibers and steel are sufficient materials. What prevents supersized skyscrapers is zoning laws.”
Zoning Laws = Further erosion of the individual’s right to enjoy personal property. Sometimes its underlying logic is valid. We don’t want our hog farms right next door to the country club’s finest par 4, after all.
5k story structures have yet to be tried. Steel and Carbon nanofiber magic can’t pull it off yet.
I haven’t seen the movie so I didn’t know they are 5000 stories. Seems a bit impractical if you ask me as I don’t see a benefit to encouraging the expansion of the human population beyond replacement levels. Other than maybe the statistical odds of another Einstein or Newton being born increasing. (AI would speed this up anyway)
> With the rise of Communism, welfare states, fascism and international corporate capitalism (all forms of Darwinist Socialism), many of the destructive controls preventing adequate growth and distribution of resources returned.
Then let’s hear about your utopian society where that does not happen. The above pretty much cover all recent attempts to redistribute wealth. I’m sure you have a better idea how to do it. But some conspiracy is holding you back from realizing it, I’m sure.
And I don’t think I even want to go to discuss the “warped” morality of requiring people to directly contribute back to the gene pool by having children – thus limiting their life choices – while at the same time screaming for an individual’s right to property. And while we are at it: it’s not so much that we could not build 5k stories buildings at all, it’s more that the economics just don’t favor them and for a lot of reasons.
>Just one acre of indoor hydroponics can grow 30 acres of outdoor strawberries. This means that today’s farmland usage could be reduced to 1%.
Except for the small issue of actually powering hydroponics (no, we do *not* have enough Uranium to pull it off). And the fact that hydroponically grown veggies taste like what they’re made of – water.
Nupnup
Veggies are mostly made of water. The veggies taste exactly like normal veggies because the compounds that make them are the same. Also I want to see you back up your statement about uranium which is a bit presumptive because vertical farms work on solar power. But I’m sure you will reply with a dystopian view of solar power. The bottom line is the sun has been sufficient for growing vegetables and will continue to be so. Vertical farms are also hyper efficient because of their self contained nature and grow food that is much better than the pesticide laden crap your FDA overlords stuff you with. Most of this stuff wouldn’t even be hydroponic it would be grown in soil layers.
@96 Nupnup
“And I don’t think I even want to go to discuss the “warped” morality of requiring people to directly contribute back to the gene pool by having children – thus limiting their life choices – while at the same time screaming for an individual’s right to property.”
Nice misrepresentation of me… Ass!
I never even implied force, so I am not defending my position as I counter this one. Your “requiring people” when I never said anyone “had to” do anything above. Its a waste of a life IMHO.
Again, I just think that a human life is incomplete, and unfinished without having a kid, and people like David Alex are no different then homosexuals, and career-feminists.
Their primary and noble purpose having been forsaken.
But I like that you call me “warped” guess I am daring to color outside the lines, and exist outside of the corporate box.
“The real problem is that big government is the greatest obstacle to the social advancement of the human race.”
Yep, because if there one thing Africa has a lot of government, it’s government. Damn Congolese and Somalian big government.
98 SAM
“Again, I just think that a human life is incomplete, and unfinished without having a kid, and people like David Alex are no different then homosexuals, and career-feminists.
Their primary and noble purpose having been forsaken.”
The only purpose in life is joy, freedom, love, and happiness. However a person does or does not achieve that is nobody’s business but their own.
Mind you, since I believe that the vast majority of women desexualized husks with no real sexual value or appeal, and I suspect that most beta men aren’t missing much. Prostitution, pornography, and proper masturbatory techniques can easily replicate and in many cases, beat a sexual experience in terms of enjoyment, and it does so with none of the opportunity costs that a relationship brings.
Women are raunchy beasts…you should really check it out sometime. And BTW, “proper masturbatory techniques”? YIKES.
“Because when they fail to return their genes into to the circulation, the fail to pass on anything truly lasting.”
So…what about people who are incapable of reproducing? Are they useless drains on the system, too, despite their financial/social contributions which, in part, assist the breeders who are creating “something lasting”?
How about a childless person who contributes to the cure of disease? Is that a lasting contribution?
How about a childless person who saves the life of a parent? Or a child, for that matter? Are they worthwhile then? And if so, are they then more worthwhile than if they’d saved the life of another childless person?
How about childless people who adopt parentless children? They may not be contributing their own genes, but they’re still contributing to the successful passage of genetic material, aren’t they?
Shakespeare’s works, or Shakespeare’s children: which has had a more profoundly lasting impact?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Asian chicks like big peters.
@102 Anonymous
“So…what about people who are incapable of reproducing? Are they useless drains on the system, too, despite their financial/social contributions which, in part, assist the breeders who are creating “something lasting”?
They get credit, despite their infertility. They can raise children who are stuck in an orphanage, or lost in the state foster care system. Reminds me of bio, I recently read, about a jewish man who was emasculated by the Nazis in a camp.
After the war, he moved to Harlem, and adopted two homeless black kids and raised them as his own. He got both of em, through the education system, and then into NYU law and the other went into film. They both got married and had kids. Stable families, which would never would have been created if not for Abe.
They can’t pass on genes of their own, due to incapability. Unlike those who choose to.
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“Shakespeare’s works, or Shakespeare’s children: which has had a more profoundly lasting impact?
Inquiring minds want to know”
This depends on how long a view of future history you want to look at.
+10k years from now, we wont be speaking anything at all like English, and I dare say there will be new Shakespears writing new works. and its doubtful that Shakespear will be anything than a mere fact in some book, to these people.
While he is culturally relevant to large numbers of English speaking people today, english is in decline as a language in Re: Mexican style Spanish, and Chinese.
Ask the average Mexican, or Chinese person who Shakespear was, and statistically they will be unable to tell you. (culturally bias induced irrelevancy)
His genes (which aren’t really his but those of his progenitors) are still likely shuffling in the pool today.
His works will not endure, near as long as his genes will.
He is very profound today, but will he be profound 10,000 years from now, or will he be eclipsed by newer writers who are more on point to their people?
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Now lets broach a subject going farther back then Plato, whom wrote about the immortality of the Human Soul.
If human souls (the mind-will body/essence housed within the flesh) are created by the act of procreation, then offspring has a deeper, and significantly more meaningful aspect. This is where the nobility, I speak of, comes from.
{ I sincerely doubt that they come from/return to the lesser animals. (Sorry hindu-buddist reincarnationists, and your new age spawn). }
104: So your previous “Because when they fail to return their genes into to the circulation, the fail to pass on anything truly lasting” wasn’t really accurate at all, then.
You concede it’s possible for non-reproducers to contribute in other ways, therefore genetic contribution is not the only meaningful, lasting thing that can be passed on.
“This depends on how long a view of future history you want to look at.”
You’re equivocating. From Shakespeare’s time until the present day, then, since future relevance is mere speculation, at best — and not merely for English speakers, as works of literature can be translated: which is the greater contribution? His literary works, or his genetic legacy (the direct line of which ended in 1670)?
Asian chicks like big johnson’s WHILE gaming, I’ve found…
@105 Anonymous
I think you are not getting my point.
Either:
1. Its a willful choice on your part.
or
2. You lack ability to understand the words I have written.
Depending on relevancy-bias, you can argue for alternate perspectives all you want. It doesn’t change anything about the validity my viewpoint.
I am talking about the LONG VIEW.
The whole forest, the one you cannot seem to wrap your mind around because you are fascinated by tree bark or twigs and leaves (you may call it the here and now).
“Meaningful, lasting things”…are human bodies.
IF we don’t have those, than nothing else means a damn thing. Period.
No Kids, No Future.
No Future, Life is meaningless.
We have had human bodies for what? 3.6 million years give or take. At least what the academic consensus is right now…
That is the only thing that will continue to exist come 3.6 million years from now. Human genetic evolution/expression,
that the breeders are stewards of.
The rest of all of this:
the modes of human employment, the literature, the social forms and customs will be relegated to the historical landfills.
It only meaningful in the present, (like a view of a leaf, or tree bark) to those of the present.
There is very little meaningful impact from the excavations of lost civilizations. Do you think it matters one whit?
No it doesn’t!
The only people who will read this “junk” will be translators, paper writers and other academics. Will it make it back into circulation, and main society usage? Uh … NO!!!!
You will not inherit the future, Humanity’s progeny will.
Failure to express your genes, is treason against your progenitors and the common human race.
(genetically/reproductively no different than murder).
Do what ever you like, and have at it.
I stand by my statement that David Alex (and those like him), ultimately is wasting his own lifetime and resources.
He will be forgotten, while the genes (human descendants of the other posters on here, who have been reproducing) live and thrive 100 years from now.
Given a larger scope, and higher meaningful view, his life is insignificant. No matter how much we argue today, that it is or is not so, will make it meaningful, nor will any action he takes (non-reproductively speaking).
Failure to express your genes, is treason against your progenitors and the common human race.
(genetically/reproductively no different than murder).
And the lasting consequence of this is the extinction of your genetic memory. I doubt a higher punishment is needed.
“I think you are not getting my point.
Either: 1. Its a willful choice on your part. or
2. You lack ability to understand the words I have written.”
I understand the point you’re attempting to make. It’s not a very coherent point, though, and doesn’t stand up to simple, logical questions. Questions which you never get around to answering, btw.
“You will not inherit the future, Humanity’s progeny will.”
Yes, we’ve established that both you and Whitney Houston believe the children are our future. And as you’ve already conceded, there are various ways to benefit those future children, even if none of them is of your own begetting. Therefore, passing on your own genetic material is not the only way to contribute to the future of the human race. QED.
“And the lasting consequence of this is the extinction of your genetic memory. I doubt a higher punishment is needed.”
If it’s good enough for Shakespeare, it’s good enough for me. Or you. Or anybody.
“Failure to express your genes, is treason against your progenitors and the common human race. (genetically/reproductively no different than murder).”
If you actually equate these two things, you’re even more of a fringe-dweller than your posts here usually suggest.
“He will be forgotten, while the genes (human descendants of the other posters on here, who have been reproducing) live and thrive 100 years from now.”
Or not. Like Shakespeare. You may have children…but your children may not. There are no guarantees. You might end up as genetically pointless (by your definition) as DA — and Shakespeare! — even if you do reproduce. And humanity as a whole? Will continue along just fine.
You yourself will still be forgotten, even by your own progeny, within a few generations. Your reproduction won’t give you the immortality to so desperately crave.
104 SAM
“Now lets broach a subject going farther back then Plato, whom wrote about the immortality of the Human Soul.”
Ooohhh, I got all goose bumpy! Long live Socrates!
@109 Anonymous
“Or not. Like Shakespeare. You may have children…but your children may not. There are no guarantees. You might end up as genetically pointless (by your definition) as DA — and Shakespeare! — even if you do reproduce. And humanity as a whole? Will continue along just fine.”
If my children don’t have kids, it will not be my fault. They have free will. I accept that. I completed the genetic duty, entrusted to me.
My responsibility to my progenitors, human race is partially discharged at the child’s birth, & finally discharged after I rear my young children into their age of Majority.
I am not concerned with humanity as a whole… nice straw man btw. I am dealing individuals, that make up segments of the whole. The non reproducing segment ones.
—————————————————————————
“Failure to express your genes, is treason against your progenitors and the common human race. (genetically/reproductively no different than murder).”
“If you actually equate these two things, you’re even more of a fringe-dweller than your posts here usually suggest.”
Its not a total absolute equation, but it is a qualified one. If you had a normal brain you could have done the symbolic math and solved it.
Since I suspect, your feminist programing is screwing up the gestalt for you, I will break it down for you.
Willful and deliberate failure to express genes with a partner, deprives the pool of that gene set.
Terminating a existing gene set deprives the pool of that gene set.
In both instances, we are now shorter within the gene pool of 1 set of gene expressions.
I did not say it was morally the same, nor did I say it was the same in anyway other then genetically and reproductively.
————————————————————————–
You say…
“Questions which you never get around to answering, btw.”
I respond:
1. “what about people who are incapable of reproducing? ”
This was addressed. You may obtain books/videos on learning how to read at your nearest public library.
2. “Are they useless drains on the system, too, despite their financial/social contributions which, in part, assist the breeders who are creating “something lasting”?”
Same question as number 1, beginnings of a rant, in the form of a compound question.
Let me expound. Paying taxes, so that the government can welfare the kids of others, is not a Valid Proxy. Have kids {IF} capable or Don’t, is the *THE* point here.
3. “How about a childless person who contributes to the cure of disease?”
Gets a automatic pass if infertile, treat like the answer to question No. 1. But finding a cure doesn’t prevent someone from having a kid at some point in their life. Or absolve them from gene suicide.
Partial and incomplete mitigation (Re A life of meaning) for saving millions of breeders, and their progeny. (An interesting problem, arises if this Miracleworker’s parents decided to abort him, or never marry and have any kids) Yes, it was a partially meaningful yet incomplete life.
4. “How about a childless person who saves the life of a parent?a. Or a child, for that matter?b. Are they worthwhile then? And if so, are they then more worthwhile than if they’d saved the life of another childless person?c.”
A. Yes, it was a partially meaningful yet incomplete life.
Gets a automatic pass if infertile, treat like the answer to question No. 1. But saving one parent’s life doesn’t prevent someone from having a kid at some point in their life. Or absolve them from gene suicide.
B. Yes, it was a partially meaningful yet incomplete life.
Gets a automatic pass if infertile, treat like the answer to your question No. 1. But raising someone else’s child doesn’t prevent someone from having a kid at some point in their life. Or absolve them from gene suicide.
C. The use of the term “worthwhile” denotes a change in terminology, that widens the scope of conversation beyond acceptability.
Substituting the words “Meaningful” and/or “Lasting” within the context of my usage (LONG VIEW) for the word “worthwhile” and attempting to address the new question.
C. 2.0
As fertility decreases with age, there is a corresponding decrease in meaningfulness (reproductiveness) of a life.
So, saving a child’s life is “more than” { B>A } saving an adult 21-99 yo’s life
No, but in some cases a maybe
It was a negligible amount meaningful in this incomplete life. It reached the point of diminishing returns.
Unless the life that was saved, in turn found the cure for a deadly pandemic, saving millions of breeders, and progeny.
Gets a automatic pass if infertile, treat like the answer to question No. 1. But saving a the life of a childless person doesn’t prevent someone from having a kid at some point in their life. Or absolve them from gene suicide.
—————————————————————————
5a “How about childless people who adopt parent-less children?”
5b. They may not be contributing their own genes, but they’re still contributing to the successful passage of genetic material, aren’t they?
a, b: Yes, it was a partially meaningful yet incomplete life.
Gets a automatic pass if infertile, treat like the answer to your question No. 1. But raising someone else’s child doesn’t prevent someone from having a kid at some point in their life. Or absolve them from gene suicide.
————————————————————————–
6. Shakespeare’s works, or Shakespeare’s children: which has had a more profoundly lasting impact?
This was addressed.
Usage of the word “lasting” is not germane to the topic, if you continue to refuse to look at the Long View.
We have a Quarterhorse racing a Throughbred here. In a short term view of history, it may appear that the written works have had a more profound impact.
But given the fact that ever day that passes his profoundness and his Impact are reduced, the long term prognosis is absolutely clear.
He will be about as relevant as “Hello Kitty” in 12008 AD
Post 111
is an example of what happens when I address seven question marks within a single post.
It was done in response to their/her complaint that I didn’t answer their questions.
Otherwise It would about been about standard length for one of my posts.
Milton Freedman
Milton hook up the hydroponics on the strawberries. 30 acres on one acre? How much does an acre cost?
Gunslingergregi
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/95nov/strawber.htm
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061209/NEWS/612090374
As you can imagine growing things in a mechanized contained fashion is much much cheaper.
@114 Milton Freedman
An eye opening exposes on the strawberry. It makes my heart sick. I may have cultural-gender bias (love TexMex food, love Mexican girls/ladies and generally despise Mexican males)
from having grown up a tall gringo in the barrios of San Antonio Texas. This is beyond the pale of ethical moral business practices. Its just plain wrong.
Texas has a good town famous for its strawberries called Poteet. I live in the peach capital of Texas however.
I have farmed and ranched on and off my whole life. Its just part of being Texan.